The nature and total eradication of fear Dialogue 6 San Diego, California, USA - 20 February 1974
Chắc là từ video này.
W. Anderson nhìn rác rưởi vãi. Dialogue với JK có gì đó khó khăn ? Hay có lẽ phải chuẩn bị trước nhiều, khó nói mơ hồ được. 'Chuẩn bị' có gì đó cần đến thời gian, có gì đó sai sai khi JK thường nhấn mạnh the moment, right now, go now or not go. Nên hiểu theo hướng deep thinking/feeling unconditioning... Trong nhiều buổi nói với sinh viên, JK có gì đó quá abtract và thiếu gần gũi ? Nếu đem ví dụ cụ thể thì đỡ hơn. JK có đưa ra ví dụ nhưng không nên vin vào đó. Hơn nưa nhiều điều ẩn giấu rất khó lộ ra và diễn đạt, có thể thấy JK nhiều lần nhắm mắt mới một lát nói được. Chúng ta cũng khó đòi hỏi ông thầy già yếu mô tả cả việc nên nhắm mắt suy nghĩ tĩnh lặng mới hiểu được gì đó.
K: Personal. And also in relation to others; fears of physical insecurity, losing a job, losing a position, losing something, and all the positive, not having something, and so on and on. So, if we are going to talk about this question how should we, you and I, approach this? First take the outer, the obvious physical fears, and then from there move to the inner, and so cover the whole field, not just one little fear of an old lady, or an old man, or a young man, take the whole problem of fear.
...
K: So, see what is involved. If I lose my job I am frightened, and that job depends on the environment, on the production, business, factory, all that commercialism, consumerism, and therefore competition with other countries. France isolating itself because it wants to... which is happening. So we need physical security and we are doing everything to destroy it. If we all of us said, look let's all get together, not with plans, not with my plan, your plan, or the communist plan or Mao plan, let's as human beings sit together and solve this problem. They could do it. Science has the means of feeding people. But they won't because they are conditioned to function so as to destroy security which they are seeking. So that's one of the major factors in physical security. Then there is the fear of physical pain. Is physical pain in the sense, one has had pain, let's say last week. The mind is afraid that it should happen again. So there is that kind of fear.
Comments is disabled, wtf.
...
K: So, can the mind bring about security, physical security, which means food, clothes and shelter for everybody. Not as a communist, as a capitalist, as a socialist, or as a Mao, but meet together as human beings to resolve this problem. It can be done. But nobody wants to do it, because they don't feel responsible for it. I don't know if you have been to India; if you have gone from town to town to village as I have done, you see the appalling poverty, the degradation of poverty, the sense of hopelessness of it.
JK có lần nói cái responsibility of individual is for himself not society. Mình hiểu sai hay có ẩn ý gì ở đây ?
...
K: I know sir. Personally we have been through all that. So, physical survival is only possible when human beings get together. Not as communists, socialists, all the rest, as human beings who say, look this is our problem, for god's sake let's solve it. But they won't because they are burdened with problems, with planning. How to solve that. I don't know if I am...?
K: You have your plan, I have my plan, he has his plan, so planning becomes most important, plans become most important rather than the starvation. And we fight each other. And common sense, affection, care, love can change all this. Sir, I won't go into that. Then the fear of public opinion. Do you understand, sir? What my neighbour will say.
K: If I am a Catholic living in Italy, I have to depend on my neighbour because I would lose my job if I were a Protestant there. So I accept it. I will go and salute the pope or whatever, it has no meaning. So I am afraid of public opinion. See what a human mind has reduced itself to. I don't mind, say, 'To blazes with public opinion', because that's stupid. They are conditioned, they are frightened as much as I am. So there is that fear. And there is the fear, physical fear of death, which is an immense fear. That fear one has to tackle differently when we come to it, when we talk about death and all that.
K: So there is the outward form of fear; fear of darkness, fear of public opinion, fear of losing a job, fear of survival, not being able to survive. Sir, I have lived with people with one meal a day and that's not enough even. I have walked behind a woman with a girl, and the girl said, in India, 'Mother, I'm hungry.' And the mother says, 'You have already eaten for the day.' So there is all that, those physical fears, pain, and the fear of recurring pain, and that. And the other fears are much more complicated, fears of dependency, inwardly, I depend on my wife, I depend on my guru, I depend on the priest, I depend on the - so many dependants. And I am afraid to lose them, to be left alone.
K: To be rejected. If that woman turns away from me I'm lost. I get angry, brutal, violent, jealous, because I have depended on her. So dependency is one of the factors of fear. And inwardly I am afraid. I am afraid of loneliness. The other day I saw on the television a woman saying, 'The only fear I have in life is my loneliness'. And therefore being afraid of loneliness I do all kinds of neurotic activities. Being lonely I attach myself to you or to a belief, or to a saviour, to a guru. And I protect the guru, the saviour, the belief and that soon becomes neurotic.
K: With this rubbish. There is that fear. Then there is the fear of not being able to arrive, succeed, succeed in this world of disorder, and succeed in the so-called spiritual world. That's what they are all doing now.
K: Achievement, which they call enlightenment.
K: So, not being, not achieving, not arriving, brings about tremendous sense of uncertainty, tremendous sense of not being able to fulfil, not being able to be with, and the cry, 'I must be myself'.
K: My own thing. Which is rubbish! So there are all these fears, both logical fears, irrational fears, neurotic fears, and fears of survival, physical survival. So now how do you deal with all these fears - and many more fears which we can't go into, which we will presently - how do you deal with them all? One by one?
...
Đoạn này khó nè. Cũng khó trách Anderson hay JK, vấn đề không hề dễ. Như kiểu đi tìm cái emptiness, ground cuối cùng vỡ lẽ ra là nó darkness, no sound, no name call it what ever you want, nhưng khi chúng ta cố gọi tên nó, seek nó làm sao động và không hiểu được emptiness. Chúng ta cố gắng tìm kiếm relationship với nó nhưng sự thực là chả có cách nào cả, it is there but... Tôi rất nhiều lần chịu chết với những câu đố, bài toán. Ai cũng thế cả nhưng cảm nhận khi thì bẽ mặt, khi thì angry ... mỗi người mỗi khác. Cảm giác khi không giải được mấy câu hỏi logic kiểu trick trong khi người khác dễ dàng tìm ra... Dù hiểu nhanh hay chậm thì quá trình tìm câu trả lời cho bản thân khá đặc biệt cần quan sát. Để ý cái tôi the me, conditioned, are you seek something...
Đương nhiên trong buổi nói chuyện truyền hình thì thiết nghĩ nên có gì đó chuẩn bị trước về mặt kỹ thuật. JK dù muốn mọi thứ thực sự thay vì kịch bản... cũng nên có gì đó trao đổi trước. Ngược lại người nói chuyện với JK cũng rất cần thiết nghiên khảo thấu đáo, hiểu JK không thì rất khó nói chuyện. Lần giáo sư về tôn giáo Simon thì phải phỏng vấn JK đúng là căng thật. JK còn không bắt tay lúc xong :( Với tôi và tôi nghĩ nếu hiểu / theo JK thì những sự việc đó không là gì không nên quan trọng hóa. Ngược lại chắc rất khó để Simon bỏ cái mác giáo sư. Có lẽ ông phỏng vấn JK chủ yếu về chủ đề tôn giáo chẳng ? Đây cũng là một chủ đề hay để pick dù có vẻ hơi ngoài rìa. JK như kiểu bắt mãn gì đó.
K: What does that mean? What is the observer... what you say. Look, the problem is this - I am only making the problem clearer so that we can... We have, man has tried to lop off or prune one fear after the other, through analysis, through escape, through identifying himself with something which he calls courage. Or saying, well I don't care, I rationalise my fears and remain in a state of rationalising, intellectual, verbal explanation. But the thing is boiling. So what shall I do? What is fear? Unless I find this out, not because you tell me, unless I find it out for myself as I find from myself that I am hungry, nobody has to tell me I am hungry, I have to find this out.
...
K: When you are confronted with a problem like this merely spinning or analysing, and the fear of not being able to analyse perfectly and therefore go to a professional, who needs also an analysis. So I'm caught. So I will not analyse because I see the absurdity of it. You follow sir.
...
K: No explanations, no rationalisation, no analysis. I am faced with this thing. And what is fear? Wait, wait. Leave that. Then there are the unconscious fears of which don't know. They express themselves occasionally when I am alert, when I see the thing coming out of me.
Đoạn này như kiểu Anderson sợ không hiểu gì, không bắt kịp/được ý JK?
JK như kiểu troll làm cho Anderson khó hiểu, mà thực sự nó khó thật nhất là với ông ráo sư.
A: He's got his reputation at stake here. He better not keep quiet too long, because someone might get the idea that, either he doesn't understand a thing that is going on, or he doesn't have anything to contribute to what's going on. All of which has nothing to do with anything. Please go on.
Aha Anderson oẳng hay đấy, một case hay nếu gặp phải. Bỏ luôn the me đi cho lành.
K: Absolutely. Look, sir, what I have found: I cannot... the conscious mind, conscious thought cannot invite and expose the hidden fears. It cannot analyse it, because analysis, we said, is inaction, and there is no escape, I shan't run off to a church, or Jesus, or Buddha, or somebody, or identify myself with some other thing. I have pushed all those aside because I've understood their use, their futility. So I am left with this. This is my baby. So, what shall I do? Some action has to take place. I can't just say, 'Well I've pushed all that aside, I'll just sit'. Now just see what happens sir, because I've pushed all this aside through observation, not through resistance, not through violence, because I have negated all those, escape, analysis, running off to something, and all the rest of all that, I have energy, haven't I. The mind has energy now.
Mấy đoạn sau nhì nhằng vãi, hôm nào coi tiếp.
K: I'm asking, what has brought this fear into me, into my consciousness? I won't use that word because we'll have to go into that in a different way. What has brought this fear? And I won't leave it till I find it. You understand, sir? Because I've got the energy to do it. I don't depend on anybody, on any book, on any philosopher, nobody.
....
W. Anderson nhìn rác rưởi vãi. Dialogue với JK có gì đó khó khăn ? Hay có lẽ phải chuẩn bị trước nhiều, khó nói mơ hồ được. 'Chuẩn bị' có gì đó cần đến thời gian, có gì đó sai sai khi JK thường nhấn mạnh the moment, right now, go now or not go. Nên hiểu theo hướng deep thinking/feeling unconditioning... Trong nhiều buổi nói với sinh viên, JK có gì đó quá abtract và thiếu gần gũi ? Nếu đem ví dụ cụ thể thì đỡ hơn. JK có đưa ra ví dụ nhưng không nên vin vào đó. Hơn nưa nhiều điều ẩn giấu rất khó lộ ra và diễn đạt, có thể thấy JK nhiều lần nhắm mắt mới một lát nói được. Chúng ta cũng khó đòi hỏi ông thầy già yếu mô tả cả việc nên nhắm mắt suy nghĩ tĩnh lặng mới hiểu được gì đó.
K: Personal. And also in relation to others; fears of physical insecurity, losing a job, losing a position, losing something, and all the positive, not having something, and so on and on. So, if we are going to talk about this question how should we, you and I, approach this? First take the outer, the obvious physical fears, and then from there move to the inner, and so cover the whole field, not just one little fear of an old lady, or an old man, or a young man, take the whole problem of fear.
...
K: So, see what is involved. If I lose my job I am frightened, and that job depends on the environment, on the production, business, factory, all that commercialism, consumerism, and therefore competition with other countries. France isolating itself because it wants to... which is happening. So we need physical security and we are doing everything to destroy it. If we all of us said, look let's all get together, not with plans, not with my plan, your plan, or the communist plan or Mao plan, let's as human beings sit together and solve this problem. They could do it. Science has the means of feeding people. But they won't because they are conditioned to function so as to destroy security which they are seeking. So that's one of the major factors in physical security. Then there is the fear of physical pain. Is physical pain in the sense, one has had pain, let's say last week. The mind is afraid that it should happen again. So there is that kind of fear.
Comments is disabled, wtf.
...
K: So, can the mind bring about security, physical security, which means food, clothes and shelter for everybody. Not as a communist, as a capitalist, as a socialist, or as a Mao, but meet together as human beings to resolve this problem. It can be done. But nobody wants to do it, because they don't feel responsible for it. I don't know if you have been to India; if you have gone from town to town to village as I have done, you see the appalling poverty, the degradation of poverty, the sense of hopelessness of it.
JK có lần nói cái responsibility of individual is for himself not society. Mình hiểu sai hay có ẩn ý gì ở đây ?
...
K: I know sir. Personally we have been through all that. So, physical survival is only possible when human beings get together. Not as communists, socialists, all the rest, as human beings who say, look this is our problem, for god's sake let's solve it. But they won't because they are burdened with problems, with planning. How to solve that. I don't know if I am...?
K: You have your plan, I have my plan, he has his plan, so planning becomes most important, plans become most important rather than the starvation. And we fight each other. And common sense, affection, care, love can change all this. Sir, I won't go into that. Then the fear of public opinion. Do you understand, sir? What my neighbour will say.
K: If I am a Catholic living in Italy, I have to depend on my neighbour because I would lose my job if I were a Protestant there. So I accept it. I will go and salute the pope or whatever, it has no meaning. So I am afraid of public opinion. See what a human mind has reduced itself to. I don't mind, say, 'To blazes with public opinion', because that's stupid. They are conditioned, they are frightened as much as I am. So there is that fear. And there is the fear, physical fear of death, which is an immense fear. That fear one has to tackle differently when we come to it, when we talk about death and all that.
K: So there is the outward form of fear; fear of darkness, fear of public opinion, fear of losing a job, fear of survival, not being able to survive. Sir, I have lived with people with one meal a day and that's not enough even. I have walked behind a woman with a girl, and the girl said, in India, 'Mother, I'm hungry.' And the mother says, 'You have already eaten for the day.' So there is all that, those physical fears, pain, and the fear of recurring pain, and that. And the other fears are much more complicated, fears of dependency, inwardly, I depend on my wife, I depend on my guru, I depend on the priest, I depend on the - so many dependants. And I am afraid to lose them, to be left alone.
K: To be rejected. If that woman turns away from me I'm lost. I get angry, brutal, violent, jealous, because I have depended on her. So dependency is one of the factors of fear. And inwardly I am afraid. I am afraid of loneliness. The other day I saw on the television a woman saying, 'The only fear I have in life is my loneliness'. And therefore being afraid of loneliness I do all kinds of neurotic activities. Being lonely I attach myself to you or to a belief, or to a saviour, to a guru. And I protect the guru, the saviour, the belief and that soon becomes neurotic.
K: With this rubbish. There is that fear. Then there is the fear of not being able to arrive, succeed, succeed in this world of disorder, and succeed in the so-called spiritual world. That's what they are all doing now.
K: Achievement, which they call enlightenment.
K: So, not being, not achieving, not arriving, brings about tremendous sense of uncertainty, tremendous sense of not being able to fulfil, not being able to be with, and the cry, 'I must be myself'.
K: My own thing. Which is rubbish! So there are all these fears, both logical fears, irrational fears, neurotic fears, and fears of survival, physical survival. So now how do you deal with all these fears - and many more fears which we can't go into, which we will presently - how do you deal with them all? One by one?
...
Đoạn này khó nè. Cũng khó trách Anderson hay JK, vấn đề không hề dễ. Như kiểu đi tìm cái emptiness, ground cuối cùng vỡ lẽ ra là nó darkness, no sound, no name call it what ever you want, nhưng khi chúng ta cố gọi tên nó, seek nó làm sao động và không hiểu được emptiness. Chúng ta cố gắng tìm kiếm relationship với nó nhưng sự thực là chả có cách nào cả, it is there but... Tôi rất nhiều lần chịu chết với những câu đố, bài toán. Ai cũng thế cả nhưng cảm nhận khi thì bẽ mặt, khi thì angry ... mỗi người mỗi khác. Cảm giác khi không giải được mấy câu hỏi logic kiểu trick trong khi người khác dễ dàng tìm ra... Dù hiểu nhanh hay chậm thì quá trình tìm câu trả lời cho bản thân khá đặc biệt cần quan sát. Để ý cái tôi the me, conditioned, are you seek something...
Đương nhiên trong buổi nói chuyện truyền hình thì thiết nghĩ nên có gì đó chuẩn bị trước về mặt kỹ thuật. JK dù muốn mọi thứ thực sự thay vì kịch bản... cũng nên có gì đó trao đổi trước. Ngược lại người nói chuyện với JK cũng rất cần thiết nghiên khảo thấu đáo, hiểu JK không thì rất khó nói chuyện. Lần giáo sư về tôn giáo Simon thì phải phỏng vấn JK đúng là căng thật. JK còn không bắt tay lúc xong :( Với tôi và tôi nghĩ nếu hiểu / theo JK thì những sự việc đó không là gì không nên quan trọng hóa. Ngược lại chắc rất khó để Simon bỏ cái mác giáo sư. Có lẽ ông phỏng vấn JK chủ yếu về chủ đề tôn giáo chẳng ? Đây cũng là một chủ đề hay để pick dù có vẻ hơi ngoài rìa. JK như kiểu bắt mãn gì đó.
K: What does that mean? What is the observer... what you say. Look, the problem is this - I am only making the problem clearer so that we can... We have, man has tried to lop off or prune one fear after the other, through analysis, through escape, through identifying himself with something which he calls courage. Or saying, well I don't care, I rationalise my fears and remain in a state of rationalising, intellectual, verbal explanation. But the thing is boiling. So what shall I do? What is fear? Unless I find this out, not because you tell me, unless I find it out for myself as I find from myself that I am hungry, nobody has to tell me I am hungry, I have to find this out.
...
K: When you are confronted with a problem like this merely spinning or analysing, and the fear of not being able to analyse perfectly and therefore go to a professional, who needs also an analysis. So I'm caught. So I will not analyse because I see the absurdity of it. You follow sir.
...
K: No explanations, no rationalisation, no analysis. I am faced with this thing. And what is fear? Wait, wait. Leave that. Then there are the unconscious fears of which don't know. They express themselves occasionally when I am alert, when I see the thing coming out of me.
Đoạn này như kiểu Anderson sợ không hiểu gì, không bắt kịp/được ý JK?
JK như kiểu troll làm cho Anderson khó hiểu, mà thực sự nó khó thật nhất là với ông ráo sư.
A: He's got his reputation at stake here. He better not keep quiet too long, because someone might get the idea that, either he doesn't understand a thing that is going on, or he doesn't have anything to contribute to what's going on. All of which has nothing to do with anything. Please go on.
Aha Anderson oẳng hay đấy, một case hay nếu gặp phải. Bỏ luôn the me đi cho lành.
K: Absolutely. Look, sir, what I have found: I cannot... the conscious mind, conscious thought cannot invite and expose the hidden fears. It cannot analyse it, because analysis, we said, is inaction, and there is no escape, I shan't run off to a church, or Jesus, or Buddha, or somebody, or identify myself with some other thing. I have pushed all those aside because I've understood their use, their futility. So I am left with this. This is my baby. So, what shall I do? Some action has to take place. I can't just say, 'Well I've pushed all that aside, I'll just sit'. Now just see what happens sir, because I've pushed all this aside through observation, not through resistance, not through violence, because I have negated all those, escape, analysis, running off to something, and all the rest of all that, I have energy, haven't I. The mind has energy now.
Mấy đoạn sau nhì nhằng vãi, hôm nào coi tiếp.
K: I'm asking, what has brought this fear into me, into my consciousness? I won't use that word because we'll have to go into that in a different way. What has brought this fear? And I won't leave it till I find it. You understand, sir? Because I've got the energy to do it. I don't depend on anybody, on any book, on any philosopher, nobody.
....
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