The ground - nameless, silence, call it what you like. It is there. And the mind wants to capture "that", to have relationship with it. Sorry, you can't. That's all!
K: Yes. Say for instance ‘X’ says there is such a ground. And all of us, ‘Y’ and
‘Z’, say, what is that ground, prove it, show it, let it manifest itself? When we ask
such questions, is it with a mind that is seeking, or rather that has this passion,
this love for truth? Or are we merely saying let’s talk about it?
DB: I think that in that mind there is the demand for certainty; we want to be
sure. So there is no enquiring.
K: Suppose you state that there is such a thing, that there is the ground; it is
immovable, etc. And I say, I want to find out. Show it, prove it to me. How can
my mind, which has evolved through knowledge, which has been highly
disciplined in knowledge, even touch that? Because that is not knowledge, it is
not put together by thought.
DB: Yes, as soon as we say, prove it, we want to turn it into knowledge.
K: That’s it!
DB: We want to be absolutely certain, so that there can be no doubt. And yet, on
the other side of the coin, there is also the danger of self-deception and delusion.
K: Of course. The ground cannot be touched as long as there is any form of
illusion, which is the projection of desire, pleasure or fear. So how do I perceive
that thing? Is the ground an idea to be investigated? Or is it something that
cannot be investigated?
DB: Right.
K: Because my mind is trained, disciplined, by experience and knowledge, and it
can only function in that area. And someone comes along and tells me that this
ground is not an idea, is not a philosophic concept; it is not something that can be
put together, or perceived by thought.
DB: It cannot be experienced, it cannot be perceived or understood through
thought.
K: So what have I? What am I to do? I have only this mind that has been
conditioned by knowledge. How am I to move away from all that? How am I, an
ordinary man, educated, well-read, experienced, to feel this thing, to touch it, to
comprehend it?
You tell me words will not convey that. You tell me you must have a mind
that is free from all knowledge, except that which is technological. And you are
asking an impossible thing of me, aren’t you? And, if I say I will make an effort,
then that also is born out of the self-centred desire. So what shall I do? I think
that is a very serious question. That is what every serious person asks.
...
K: I know when I am angry. I know when I am wounded. It is not an idea, I have
got the feeling, I am carrying the hurt inside me. I am fed up with the
investigation because I have done it all my life. I go to Hinduism, Buddhism,
Christianity, Islam—and I say I have investigated, studied, looked at them. I say
these are all just words. How do I as a human being have this extraordinary
feeling about it? If I have no passion, I am not investigating. I want to have this
passion that will explode me out of this little enclosure. I have built a wall around
myself, a wall, which is myself. And man has lived with this thing for millions of
years. And I have been trying to get out of it by studying, by reading, by going to
gurus, by all kinds of things, but I am still anchored there. And you talk about the
ground, because you see something that is breathtaking, that seems so alive, so
extraordinary. And I am here, anchored in here. You, who have ‘seen’ the
ground, must do something that will explode, break up this centre completely.
Q: I must do something, or you must?
K: Help me! Not by prayer, and all that nonsense.
...
K: I am asking that. No, it may be that I have to make a relationship. My mind
now is in such a state that I won’t accept a thing. My mind says I have been
through all this before. I have suffered, I have searched, I have looked, I have
investigated, I have lived with people who are awfully clever at this kind of
thing. So I am asking the question, being fully aware of the danger of it, as when
the Hindus say, God is in you, Brahman is in you—which is a lovely idea! But I
have been through all that.
So I am asking if the human mind has no relationship to the ground, and if
there is only a one-way passage, from that to me...
...
K: I am not saying anything. All that I ‘want’ is this centre to be blasted. You
understand? For the centre not to exist. Because I see that the centre is the cause
of all the mischief, all the neurotic conclusions, all the illusions, all the
endeavour, all the effort, all the misery—everything is from that core. After a
million years, I haven’t been able to get rid of it; it hasn’t gone. So is there a
relationship at all? What is the relationship between goodness and evil? Consider
it. There is no relationship.
...
K: That’s it. You see, that is a great discovery. I want to establish relationship
with that. ‘Want’; I am using rapid words to convey something. This petty little
thing wants to have relationship with that immensity. It cannot.
...
Q: So you say the centre must explode.
K: No, no, no. The mind says this is too terribly small. And it can’t do anything
about it... It has prayed, it has done everything. But the centre is still there. And
someone tells me there is this ground. I want to establish a relationship with that.
Q: He tells me there is this thing, and also says that the centre is an illusion.
DB: Wait, that is too quick.
K: No. Wait. I know it is there. Call it what you like, an illusion, a reality, a
fiction—whatever you like. It is there. And the mind says, it is not good enough;
it wants to capture that. It wants to have relationship with it. And that says,
‘Sorry, you can’t have relationship with me.’ That’s all!
...
K: Don’t split it up, please. You are missing something. I have lived all this. I
know, I can argue with you, back and forth. I have a million years of experience,
and it has given me a certain capacity. And I realize at the end of it all there is no
relationship between me and truth. And that’s a tremendous shock to me. It is as
if you have knocked me out, because my million years of experience say, go after
that, seek it, pray for it, struggle for it, cry, sacrifice for it. I have done all that.
And suddenly it is pointed out that I cannot have relationship with that. I have
shed tears, left my family, everything, for that. And that says, ‘No relationship’.
So what has happened to me? This is what I want to get at. Do you understand
what I am saying—what has happened to me? To the mind that has lived this
way, done everything in search of that, when that says, ‘You have no relationship
with me’. This is the greatest thing...
...
K: That’s right. The ground says, whatever you have done ‘on earth’ has no
meaning. Is that an idea? Or an actuality? Idea being that you have told me, but I
still go on, struggling, wanting, groping. Or is it an actuality, in the sense that I
suddenly realize the futility of all that I have done. So, one must be very careful
to see that it is not a concept; or rather that one doesn’t translate it into a concept
or an idea, but receive the full blow of it!
‘Z’, say, what is that ground, prove it, show it, let it manifest itself? When we ask
such questions, is it with a mind that is seeking, or rather that has this passion,
this love for truth? Or are we merely saying let’s talk about it?
DB: I think that in that mind there is the demand for certainty; we want to be
sure. So there is no enquiring.
K: Suppose you state that there is such a thing, that there is the ground; it is
immovable, etc. And I say, I want to find out. Show it, prove it to me. How can
my mind, which has evolved through knowledge, which has been highly
disciplined in knowledge, even touch that? Because that is not knowledge, it is
not put together by thought.
DB: Yes, as soon as we say, prove it, we want to turn it into knowledge.
K: That’s it!
DB: We want to be absolutely certain, so that there can be no doubt. And yet, on
the other side of the coin, there is also the danger of self-deception and delusion.
K: Of course. The ground cannot be touched as long as there is any form of
illusion, which is the projection of desire, pleasure or fear. So how do I perceive
that thing? Is the ground an idea to be investigated? Or is it something that
cannot be investigated?
DB: Right.
K: Because my mind is trained, disciplined, by experience and knowledge, and it
can only function in that area. And someone comes along and tells me that this
ground is not an idea, is not a philosophic concept; it is not something that can be
put together, or perceived by thought.
DB: It cannot be experienced, it cannot be perceived or understood through
thought.
K: So what have I? What am I to do? I have only this mind that has been
conditioned by knowledge. How am I to move away from all that? How am I, an
ordinary man, educated, well-read, experienced, to feel this thing, to touch it, to
comprehend it?
You tell me words will not convey that. You tell me you must have a mind
that is free from all knowledge, except that which is technological. And you are
asking an impossible thing of me, aren’t you? And, if I say I will make an effort,
then that also is born out of the self-centred desire. So what shall I do? I think
that is a very serious question. That is what every serious person asks.
...
K: I know when I am angry. I know when I am wounded. It is not an idea, I have
got the feeling, I am carrying the hurt inside me. I am fed up with the
investigation because I have done it all my life. I go to Hinduism, Buddhism,
Christianity, Islam—and I say I have investigated, studied, looked at them. I say
these are all just words. How do I as a human being have this extraordinary
feeling about it? If I have no passion, I am not investigating. I want to have this
passion that will explode me out of this little enclosure. I have built a wall around
myself, a wall, which is myself. And man has lived with this thing for millions of
years. And I have been trying to get out of it by studying, by reading, by going to
gurus, by all kinds of things, but I am still anchored there. And you talk about the
ground, because you see something that is breathtaking, that seems so alive, so
extraordinary. And I am here, anchored in here. You, who have ‘seen’ the
ground, must do something that will explode, break up this centre completely.
Q: I must do something, or you must?
K: Help me! Not by prayer, and all that nonsense.
...
K: I am asking that. No, it may be that I have to make a relationship. My mind
now is in such a state that I won’t accept a thing. My mind says I have been
through all this before. I have suffered, I have searched, I have looked, I have
investigated, I have lived with people who are awfully clever at this kind of
thing. So I am asking the question, being fully aware of the danger of it, as when
the Hindus say, God is in you, Brahman is in you—which is a lovely idea! But I
have been through all that.
So I am asking if the human mind has no relationship to the ground, and if
there is only a one-way passage, from that to me...
...
K: I am not saying anything. All that I ‘want’ is this centre to be blasted. You
understand? For the centre not to exist. Because I see that the centre is the cause
of all the mischief, all the neurotic conclusions, all the illusions, all the
endeavour, all the effort, all the misery—everything is from that core. After a
million years, I haven’t been able to get rid of it; it hasn’t gone. So is there a
relationship at all? What is the relationship between goodness and evil? Consider
it. There is no relationship.
...
K: That’s it. You see, that is a great discovery. I want to establish relationship
with that. ‘Want’; I am using rapid words to convey something. This petty little
thing wants to have relationship with that immensity. It cannot.
...
Q: So you say the centre must explode.
K: No, no, no. The mind says this is too terribly small. And it can’t do anything
about it... It has prayed, it has done everything. But the centre is still there. And
someone tells me there is this ground. I want to establish a relationship with that.
Q: He tells me there is this thing, and also says that the centre is an illusion.
DB: Wait, that is too quick.
K: No. Wait. I know it is there. Call it what you like, an illusion, a reality, a
fiction—whatever you like. It is there. And the mind says, it is not good enough;
it wants to capture that. It wants to have relationship with it. And that says,
‘Sorry, you can’t have relationship with me.’ That’s all!
...
K: Don’t split it up, please. You are missing something. I have lived all this. I
know, I can argue with you, back and forth. I have a million years of experience,
and it has given me a certain capacity. And I realize at the end of it all there is no
relationship between me and truth. And that’s a tremendous shock to me. It is as
if you have knocked me out, because my million years of experience say, go after
that, seek it, pray for it, struggle for it, cry, sacrifice for it. I have done all that.
And suddenly it is pointed out that I cannot have relationship with that. I have
shed tears, left my family, everything, for that. And that says, ‘No relationship’.
So what has happened to me? This is what I want to get at. Do you understand
what I am saying—what has happened to me? To the mind that has lived this
way, done everything in search of that, when that says, ‘You have no relationship
with me’. This is the greatest thing...
...
K: That’s right. The ground says, whatever you have done ‘on earth’ has no
meaning. Is that an idea? Or an actuality? Idea being that you have told me, but I
still go on, struggling, wanting, groping. Or is it an actuality, in the sense that I
suddenly realize the futility of all that I have done. So, one must be very careful
to see that it is not a concept; or rather that one doesn’t translate it into a concept
or an idea, but receive the full blow of it!
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